digimonfandomcom-20200222-history
Forum:Myotismon
Why does it always seem so hard for people to see the big picture regarding Myotismon's resurrections and how he can be destroyed for good? I've said it before but no one else agrees with me, as if they haven't even seen the episodes recently. Let's take a look at Myotismon's death history. ::I added it to his article and it was removed for being "inaccurate", despite the fact I'm probably the only one here who's seen the Season 1 and 2 episodes recently. It's like the people who argued Grani was the same ark that took Takato and Henry to the Land of the Sovereign (that ark was destroyed on arrival, Grani was first created by the Monster Makers to take the tamers and their Digimon home, and I know Tamers better than anyone else coz I've written full transcripts of First, Angewomon destroys him with Celestial Arrow. His spirit endures, we see him in his shadow spirit form and he absorbs his remaining minions to be revived as VenomMyotismon. Second, WarGreymon and MetalGarurumon destroy VenomMyotismon with their most powerful attacks. We thought he was gone for good, but as revealed at the end of Season 2, his spirit endured once again, entered Oikawa, and resurrected himself as MaloMyotismon. Third, the kids he used to return to power regain their lost hopes and dreams, destroying all of MaloMyotismon but his top half, then destroy his top half with their Digivices. Again, his spirit endures, seen in the same shadow form witnessed before he became VenomMyotismon, but this time he's immediately visible, likely revealed by the light. But then Imperialdramon destroys Myotismon's spirit form with Giga Crusher, and as the series ends there (each new season is a reboot), it's safe to say he's gone for good. Notice a pattern here? Every time he is destroyed he always returns as a spirit, and only by destroying his spirit form can be he permanently killed. It's been consistent every time. He's just like the Triad from Charmed. Yet people have argued against this. KillRoy231 (talk) 01:01, November 17, 2016 (UTC) :On this wiki? Where? 15:47, November 17, 2016 (UTC) the episodes) KillRoy231 (talk) 21:56, November 17, 2016 (UTC) :::As far as the alleged pattern, that's not. It's one instance. It's not provable as a pattern, which is why G-SANtos asked for a source for the claim -- we don't know that Malo is permanently destroyed, for the same reason as we didn't know Venom was permanently destroyed -- there was no evidence prior to 02 that any part of Venom had survived outside of what went into Apocalymon. The wiki relies on what the canon has explicitly stated. :::What's more, the article does state the parts of that claim that can be solidly substantiated: ::::Even after being destroyed, Myotismon can re-establish himself if he recovers enough energy to make up for the damage received, absorbs massive amounts of data from external sources, and has some of his essence still remaining in an ethereal form. ::: 14:12, November 18, 2016 (UTC) ::::It's not a pattern if it only happens once. It happened three times, and stayed consistent, and the story ended after the one and only time Myotismon was destroyed in spirit form. ::::But I haven't actually read the article since that little debate, which was actually years ago. Now I know that section is on there, I'd say the article did an adequate job of decribing it accurately. KillRoy231 (talk) 05:50, November 21, 2016 (UTC) :" It happened three times" ::No, it didn't. As of 02, Myotismon was only killed once, and the canon did not specifically say that he kept coming back because they "forgot to destroy his spirit". In fact, it never indicated that there was anything they could do to stop him. For all we know, he's still as alive now as he was retconned to be after Venom died. That's the point. 18:53, November 21, 2016 (UTC) :::When was the last time you saw the episodes? I'm very familiar with them and just saw them recently, so here's what happens: :::Wizardmon's Gift - Angewomon destroys Myotismon with Celestial Arrow. He sorta explodes in a flash of light, but his fog barrier is still up. :::Prophecy - Myotismon is seen in a disembodied shadow form, and at 666, referred to as "the undead king" (a.k.a. a ghost, unless it was referring to his being a vampire), he absorbs his remaining minions (aside from DemiDevimon, whom he eats soon after) and reawakens as VenomMyotismon. :::Battle for Earth - Once hit in his weak point by WarGreymon and MetalGarurumon's attacks, he disintegrates, and his fog barrier is lifted. We are meant to think that he is gone for good this time and that the "shadow form" thing can only happen once. :::Oikawa's Shame - In an unseen disembodied form, set right when the Digidestined leave to fight the Dark Masters after VenomMyotismon's "death", he convinces Oikawa to let him in, and his shadow form is seen entering him. Once his elaborate process is complete he becomes MaloMyotismon. :::A Million Points of Light - The light from the Digivices destroys MaloMyotismon's physical form in standard Digimon death. He's seen in the same disembodied shadow form he was in when he was about to become VenomMyotismon, and when he entered Oikawa. If we're not counting the above three instances as true deaths (rather than the mere destruction of his physical form like Sauron), it means whenever his physical form is destroyed he always survives in shadow form. But then, for the first time, his shadow form is destroyed by Imperialdramon. :::And that was the end of the original series, which has its epilogue. So nothing has suggested that Myotismon survived this time, and we know he's dead. MaloMyotismon's equivalent to VenomMyotismon's destruction AND the original Myotismon's destruction is when his physical form is destroyed by the Digivice light, and the destruction of his shadow form, as far as we know - and as that series is ended nothing can prove otherwise - he's actually 100% dead this time. Imperialdramon says "We'll get rid of this pesky darkness forever" and Ken (I think) says "We destroyed him!" :::True, they never explicitly stated that only the destruction of his shadow form can kill him forever, but it's pretty easy to figure out, seeing as how his shadow form survived the destruction of his previous three physical forms, but with his shadow form destroyed (which they had to do because how else could he still be around after his defeat as VenomMyotismon?), that was the end of him as far as we know. KillRoy231 (talk) 03:44, November 24, 2016 (UTC) ::::The epilogue explicitly states that other problems happened. Battle for Earth does not depict Venom's spirit escaping, and neither does Points of Light. It is just as easy for them to retcon in that Myotismon's spirit survived after Points of Light as it was after Battle for Earth. Furthermore, the only in-canon statement we have about why Myotismon keeps surviving is his official profile stating that he is a necromancer who can bring himself back after death -- nothing about it requiring that its spirit stays alive. Heck, Devimon was able to return from death after being very solidly killed, because Digimon don't get permanently destroyed in the first place, they just get put back in the cycle of reincarnation. ::::Your fanon makes sense with the given evidence. But it is still only fanon. 21:43, November 27, 2016 (UTC) :::::Is this turning into a villain survival debate? Also, with the exception of Myotismon, Devimon, and, depending on how you interpret the event (though I really don't see it that way with him), Etemon, none of the evil Digimon ever seemed to return, only the good ones seemed to get reincarnated as Digieggs, like Patamon, Wormmon, Sukamon, Chuumon, and Whamon. Possible exception of dying in the real world, but Devimon died in the digital world, and his appearance in the Dark Whirlpool seemed nothing more than a spirit. I'm not sure how that worked but I'm guessing he either returned as a ghost kinda like Myotismon, or else was somehow able to create a portal from the Dark Area (Digimon hell) where the evil Digimon end up when destroyed (unlike the good Digimon who go back to Digieggs), though unable to escape it himself. Either way, Devimon sure as the Dark Area didn't become a Digiegg, and neither did Myotismon. (Contrast Frontier where even the evil ones are reborn as purified Digieggs, except Lucemon the final time, though he did become a Digiegg the first time) :::::And the fact still remains. His physical form as MaloMyotismon was destroyed by the light, which is undeniably the MaloMyotismon equivalent of VenomMyotismon being destroyed by WarGreymon and MetalGarurumon, because that was his physical form there too. His shadow form wasn't immediately seen after being defeated as VenomMyotismon or Myotismon for that matter (maybe the light immediately made him visible the third time), but was seen afterwards both times (first when DemiDevimon is seen before him beginning the process to revive him, and second when he enters Oikawa). The only time his shadow form, left from the destruction of his physical form, was destroyed was by Imperialdramon. Why is it so hard to see that? Last time they must have assumed that you never come back as a ghost twice (kinda like Andross in Star Fox). :::::As for the epilogue, it says the powers of darkness still exist (such as the Dark Ocean). Myotismon was merely one of the powers of darkness, just like Devimon, Etemon, the Dark Masters, and Piedmon. While Myotismon can be permanently destroyed, the powers of darkness can't, as TK said "Where there's light you'll always find darkness as well". KillRoy231 (talk) 06:51, December 19, 2016 (UTC) ::::::You're arguing from your own fanon and interpretation of the events, despite the portrayal having just as much possibility to be retconned as it did when the writers retconned Myotismon's survival the first time. This wiki is based on what is actually published, not what we believe to be "true" within "the universe of Digimon". If you cannot find an explicit source within the published material backing up your claim, it will not be added to the wiki. 01:42, December 20, 2016 (UTC) :::::::Well, everywhere else agrees that it was his final death. It's implied there might be other evil creatures out there (like how Daemon came out of nowhere) but as long as there's light it can keep the darkness at bay. It's clear we'll both stand by what we believe to be true, because everything in the show seems to point to my "fanon", even if not explicitly stated. I have no more arguments to give. :::::::One theory I have on the destruction of MaloMyotismon's physical form - and I acknowledge it as such - is that when the kids regained their lost dreams, the process of the Dark Spores was reversed, reverting Myotismon to the state he was in before absorbing their power and becoming MaloMyotismon. That's just my theory though, because nothing has explicitly stated that's what "destroyed" him (plus it was the Digivice light that destroyed his top half). KillRoy231 (talk) 05:11, December 20, 2016 (UTC) :::Okay, the thing you're not getting is that I'm not talking about what "I believe to be true". You're trying to make this personal, and that's a waste of time. :::Your argument is not based on anything explicitly stated in the canon, and relies on what you assume to be implications. You're free to believe it. I'm not even saying I believe something different. I'm saying that you haven't met the necessary burden of proof to publish your claim on the wiki. :::If you want to have a fan-based discussion about what you, personally, hold as fanon, then do that. But you started this discussion talking about how the wiki articles needed to be "corrected", and on that matter there are some pretty clear-cut, strict rules for what's allowable and what's not. 18:57, December 20, 2016 (UTC) ::::I'm drawing my conclusions from what we've seen in the show. It wasn't explicitly stated but I can figure it out pretty easily. KillRoy231 (talk) 02:17, December 21, 2016 (UTC) :::::"It wasn't explicitly stated-" -- Exactly. :::::"-but I can figure it out pretty easily." -- Digimon's not real. There's nothing to "figure out". The publications are the publications are the publications. 15:46, December 21, 2016 (UTC)